In fact, I googled and I see no evidence of an famous objectivist named John Spragge.

lauredhel: This has nothing to do with rape brinkmanship; it has to do with finding clear and non-exclusionary language for anti-rape education.

This is pretty much Coping With Autism 101, which is why my troll sensors are firing.

I’m pretty much at a loss as to why anyone would want to fuck someone without bothering to find out how they’re feeling about it. If you’re worried that she might up sobbing in a police station the next day, back the fuck off. Why all the rape-brinksmanship?

Which is what I’ve been saying all along. His quibble is an academic one, I think, because it’s entirely over the word “enthusiastic”, not over the concept of expressive consent, or education.

If you truly, honesty have absolutely no fucking idea what emotions the woman you’re about to stick your dick in is feeling, ASK HER. Y’know, in WORDS.

Geez. It really ISN’T complicated.

I’ve heard it all before, John.

I wish you health and recovery.

But with respect, I react to the word “enthusiasm” precisely because other people have said they expect more than just asking, more than just clearing up ambiguities, more than just getting clearly stated consent. To quote, one writer wants us to “make sure that the feelings, words and actions of our intimate partners are congruent…. do this difficult but not impossible emotional work” (look up the “Tikkun olam” post at hugoschwyzer.net). Unfortunately, the word “enthusiastic” permits this interpretation.

Unclear words create an unacceptable gray areas. Given the importance of clarity, I think we should use words carefully. We’ve got words for clarity, we’ve got words for checking things out. I simply suggest we the words that express exactly what we mean, rather than the words which mean things we don’t want to say.

Yeah, I do frequently have trouble reading subtle cues in other people’s speech and body language.

But, G-ddess damn it, I think I can tell the difference between enthusiastic consent and grudging pseudo-consent. One is “Yes, yes, Yes, YES!!! Oh, OH!!” and / or s/he’s jumping my bones, and the other is laying there and staring at the ceiling and just allowing him to do it and waiting for it to be over, which is how I got through it every time he raped me. How hard can it be to tell the difference between those two reactions? Freakin’ night and day, if you ask me, and very easy for this autie to distinguish.

When we talk about *everybody* needing to establish the other person’s enthusiastic consent before proceeding, what this means for me is that if I have the *slightest* doubt that the other person is giving me enthusiastic consent, I’ll stop and ask. That is all that anybody is expecting.