Yeah, I said American men because that is who I have the most direct experience with. I can’t tell you how many male professors I have had who have dismissed my personal experiences with and research about this topic. I do recognize the difference between basic fact delivery and making nuances clear, unfortunately it is also very common that those reading those facts do not know that difference.

It sounds like we’re in complete agreement about the specific facts and issues we’ve been discussing. I can certainly understand that you’re used to hearing sweeping or ignorant statements about Islam and the veil, and were on alert for exactly that kind of talk, and I have no problem with either your sensitivity on this issue, or with what you seem to think (mistakenly) is incoherence on your part. :-)

My hackles also tend to go up when discussions of women in Islam divert to talk of the veil because frankly, from the perspective of those women, the only people who freak about it that much are either men, non-Muslims who don’t know what it means, or a combination thereof. There is a heavy cultural aspect that gets ignored, and there is no standard within Islam itself, nor is there even agreement between different groups as to how it should look or even if it should be done. The “Islamic tradition” is actually more of an “Abrahamic tradition” since both Judaism and Christianity have similar traditions of head covering that have evolved differently, but are still practiced in some form.

yeah, like I said, incoherent. I do want to apologize for my snappishness, but this is a subject that is very near and dear to me, so I get defensive very easily.

The Qu’ran actually speaks of modesty – for both men and women. It doesn’t necessarily specifically refer to veiling, but consider this: it is believed to be, from some scholars on Islam, a throwback to the arid climate that many Muslims come from.

As with all religions, many of the customs are born of necessity, not of ‘God’ whatever you may call him/her. For example, Leviticus states that people shouldn’t eat shell fish. Well, given the environs that Leviticus was likely from, eating shell fish could have been dangerous, nay, deadly.

Islam, like everything has to be put in perspective. In the correct perspective Islam is actually a very woman friendly religion – but as usual people highjacked it for their own purposes.

No, Dori, I’ve actually taught this issue at the college level. I was casting about for a reference for you, since you asked whether I could provide “evidence” (and I assumed you weren’t looking for a citation to an offline source).

If you disagree with the statement on Wikipedia, please say so.

Go read this, its based in actual research.

Most of what you write sounds right to me. So I’m not sure what your concern with my position is.

You do say that veiling, “as it is recognized by non-Muslim westerners, and even some Muslim westerners,” is a largely urban and recent phenomenon. I’m not quite sure I follow that part, as I understood that most basic forms of veiling have deep roots in Muslim history.

You also seem to be focused largely on national laws, such as those requiring or prohibiting veils, rather than what Islamic doctrine or practice permits or dictates. The latter is what I had commented on.

Go read this, its based in actual research. If you need the bibliography, I’ll get it for you.

Well, Dori, I don’t mean to imply that this is the only Muslim interpretation, or that it’s the majority view. I simply mean that this view holds sway among a substantial portion of the Islamic population, and has done so since the Middle Ages.

I certainly agree that Muslim practices in this regard are far from uniform, and that few Islamic countries go so far as to mandate the veil by law, which is a different matter.

There is no real head authority in Islam … to dictate a widely held belief or practice, so where does your evidence come from?

Where does my evidence come from that strict veiling is a widely held belief or practice among Muslims?

Well … you shouldn’t assume that I have “evidence” that can be conveyed online, but let me try to find something.

According to the Wikipedia article on the hijab, for instance: “All four Sunni schools of thought (Hanafi, Shafi’i, Maliki and Hanbali) hold that entire body of the woman, except her face and hands … must be covered during prayer and in public settings.”

Since Sunni Muslims constitute by far the largest grouping within Islam, I think that pretty much covers it.

The same article describes the view that women need not wear the veil as a “minority viewpoint.”

Maybe you only know they are Muslim because they are veiled.

It’s true that when it comes to strangers, often the only outward sign that a women is Muslim will come if she is wearing some form of head covering.

This doesn’t mean, however, that I use this to gauge how many women wear the veil.

If nothing else, it would be quite strange to try to judge Muslim practice by looking solely at women in my own country.

Define “mainstream.” I am challenging your assertion about veiling mainly because it seems to come with several assumptions. What are you considering to be “mainstream” Islam? Cause it one of the most wide spread religions in the world and the practice of veiling is not homogeneous in the least, not even within the same country. Countries with mandatory veiling laws are in the minority iirc, and some predominantly Muslim countries actively ban the practice. There is no real head authority in Islam (no such thing as a Muslim equivalent to the Pope) to dictate a widely held belief or practice, so where does your evidence come from?

hint: if it comes from the fact that all the Muslim women you see are veiled, consider this. Maybe you only know they are Muslim because they are veiled. You could see an unveiled Muslim woman and never know she was Muslim.

It’s true that many people will use (or abuse) ambiguous religious texts for their own purposes, but in this case, the veiling of women has been a mainstream Muslim belief for many centuries.