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	<title>Comments on: Trans Panic Defense Underway in Trial for Angie Zapata&#8217;s Murder</title>
	<atom:link href="http://thecurvature.com/2009/04/20/trans-panic-defense-underway-in-trial-for-angie-zapatas-murder/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://thecurvature.com/2009/04/20/trans-panic-defense-underway-in-trial-for-angie-zapatas-murder/</link>
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		<title>By: The Advocate Misgenders Trans Woman : The Curvature</title>
		<link>http://thecurvature.com/2009/04/20/trans-panic-defense-underway-in-trial-for-angie-zapatas-murder/#comment-12808</link>
		<dc:creator>The Advocate Misgenders Trans Woman : The Curvature</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Jun 2009 20:13:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thecurvature.com/?p=4900#comment-12808</guid>
		<description>[...] people with their honest presentation of their gender identities?  It&#8217;s killing those same women.  Congratulations, Advocate editors, on contributing to [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] people with their honest presentation of their gender identities?  It&#8217;s killing those same women.  Congratulations, Advocate editors, on contributing to [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Breaking: Allen Andrade Convicted of First Degree Murder : The Curvature</title>
		<link>http://thecurvature.com/2009/04/20/trans-panic-defense-underway-in-trial-for-angie-zapatas-murder/#comment-11931</link>
		<dc:creator>Breaking: Allen Andrade Convicted of First Degree Murder : The Curvature</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Apr 2009 21:25:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thecurvature.com/?p=4900#comment-11931</guid>
		<description>[...] Ray Andrade, the man who murdered Angie Zapata (left), was just minutes ago convicted on the two main charges of first degree murder and [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Ray Andrade, the man who murdered Angie Zapata (left), was just minutes ago convicted on the two main charges of first degree murder and [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Defense Attorney Argues That No Doesn&#8217;t Always Mean No : The Curvature</title>
		<link>http://thecurvature.com/2009/04/20/trans-panic-defense-underway-in-trial-for-angie-zapatas-murder/#comment-11926</link>
		<dc:creator>Defense Attorney Argues That No Doesn&#8217;t Always Mean No : The Curvature</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Apr 2009 15:54:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thecurvature.com/?p=4900#comment-11926</guid>
		<description>[...] wondering for the umpteenth time whether or not defense attorneys are actually born with a conscience (while simultaneously [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] wondering for the umpteenth time whether or not defense attorneys are actually born with a conscience (while simultaneously [...]</p>
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		<title>By: SunlessNick</title>
		<link>http://thecurvature.com/2009/04/20/trans-panic-defense-underway-in-trial-for-angie-zapatas-murder/#comment-11916</link>
		<dc:creator>SunlessNick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Apr 2009 19:07:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thecurvature.com/?p=4900#comment-11916</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;...breaks into her home, murders her, and takes off with her car and credit cards while bragging about it on the phone to his girlfriend?&lt;/blockquote&gt;And apparently does all this while in one of the stealthiest uncontrollable rages ever.

But taking Greg H&#039;s point into account, it&#039;s sick that the implausibility of his claim is even worth discussion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>&#8230;breaks into her home, murders her, and takes off with her car and credit cards while bragging about it on the phone to his girlfriend?</p></blockquote>
<p>And apparently does all this while in one of the stealthiest uncontrollable rages ever.</p>
<p>But taking Greg H&#8217;s point into account, it&#8217;s sick that the implausibility of his claim is even worth discussion.</p>
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		<title>By: Greg H</title>
		<link>http://thecurvature.com/2009/04/20/trans-panic-defense-underway-in-trial-for-angie-zapatas-murder/#comment-11915</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg H</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Apr 2009 18:55:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thecurvature.com/?p=4900#comment-11915</guid>
		<description>It doesn&#039;t matter if he did or didn&#039;t know the sex of Angie-it wasn&#039;t even a surprise to him. Murder is murder. IMHO, he deserves maximum sentence, 1st degree murder, hate crime, everything.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It doesn&#8217;t matter if he did or didn&#8217;t know the sex of Angie-it wasn&#8217;t even a surprise to him. Murder is murder. IMHO, he deserves maximum sentence, 1st degree murder, hate crime, everything.</p>
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		<title>By: little light</title>
		<link>http://thecurvature.com/2009/04/20/trans-panic-defense-underway-in-trial-for-angie-zapatas-murder/#comment-11914</link>
		<dc:creator>little light</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Apr 2009 18:15:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thecurvature.com/?p=4900#comment-11914</guid>
		<description>Sunlessnick:  &lt;i&gt;And that is the essence of the trans panic defence - the idea that trans people are assaulting cis people simply by existing, so anything cis people do to them comes under self-defence.&lt;/i&gt;

Hammer, meet nail.  That&#039;s it precisely.  Existing as trans counts as provocation.  It counts as deserving it.  The murderer is the &quot;real&quot; victim, and he&#039;s the one who&#039;s been hurt worse, according to a lot of people.

GringaSalsera&#039;s mention of victim status being linked to Ms. Zapata&#039;s womanhood is germane, too.  Because when you remove the trans part of the narrative, it goes like this:

A thirtysomething gang member with a girlfriend and a criminal record trolls online dating sites and finds an 18-year-old girl who&#039;s by-and-large considered wholesome and kind, with a supportive, stable family, who he then seduces.  He learns that she&#039;s in a vulnerable social position while he&#039;s setting up a date.  Shortly after they fool around together, he lets himself into her house, waits for her to get home, and then sexually assaults her, beats her to death, and steals her credit cards and car as well as some of her possessions, some of which he gives as gifts to his girlfriend after dumping the murder weapon by the highway, which is later found with physical evidence of the crime intact.  He admits on the phone that the victim needed to die and that he took his sweet time with beating her to death.  His confession of the murder and robbery are recorded and admissible evidence.

When you leave out the &quot;trans&quot; part, that&#039;s cut-and-dried for just about any jury in the country.  30ish guy meets a vulnerable 18-year-old girl, gets her to sleep with him, and then breaks into her home, murders her, and takes off with her car and credit cards while bragging about it on the phone to his girlfriend?  &lt;i&gt;That&lt;/i&gt; narrative, supported by physical evidence and a recorded, admissible &lt;i&gt;confession&lt;/i&gt;, is called an open-and-shut case, and the public and jury sympathy for the pretty, sweet, murdered 18-year-old girl in question is basically ironclad.

Unless she&#039;s trans.  And then suddenly Andrade is sympathetic, and she&#039;s the &lt;i&gt;real&lt;/i&gt; criminal here, because &quot;things&quot; like her &lt;i&gt;deserve&lt;/i&gt; to die, and just existing counts as an assault that cries out for a &quot;self-defense&quot; retaliation.  Whammo.  The case is a different kind of open-and-shut, all of a sudden.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sunlessnick:  <i>And that is the essence of the trans panic defence &#8211; the idea that trans people are assaulting cis people simply by existing, so anything cis people do to them comes under self-defence.</i></p>
<p>Hammer, meet nail.  That&#8217;s it precisely.  Existing as trans counts as provocation.  It counts as deserving it.  The murderer is the &#8220;real&#8221; victim, and he&#8217;s the one who&#8217;s been hurt worse, according to a lot of people.</p>
<p>GringaSalsera&#8217;s mention of victim status being linked to Ms. Zapata&#8217;s womanhood is germane, too.  Because when you remove the trans part of the narrative, it goes like this:</p>
<p>A thirtysomething gang member with a girlfriend and a criminal record trolls online dating sites and finds an 18-year-old girl who&#8217;s by-and-large considered wholesome and kind, with a supportive, stable family, who he then seduces.  He learns that she&#8217;s in a vulnerable social position while he&#8217;s setting up a date.  Shortly after they fool around together, he lets himself into her house, waits for her to get home, and then sexually assaults her, beats her to death, and steals her credit cards and car as well as some of her possessions, some of which he gives as gifts to his girlfriend after dumping the murder weapon by the highway, which is later found with physical evidence of the crime intact.  He admits on the phone that the victim needed to die and that he took his sweet time with beating her to death.  His confession of the murder and robbery are recorded and admissible evidence.</p>
<p>When you leave out the &#8220;trans&#8221; part, that&#8217;s cut-and-dried for just about any jury in the country.  30ish guy meets a vulnerable 18-year-old girl, gets her to sleep with him, and then breaks into her home, murders her, and takes off with her car and credit cards while bragging about it on the phone to his girlfriend?  <i>That</i> narrative, supported by physical evidence and a recorded, admissible <i>confession</i>, is called an open-and-shut case, and the public and jury sympathy for the pretty, sweet, murdered 18-year-old girl in question is basically ironclad.</p>
<p>Unless she&#8217;s trans.  And then suddenly Andrade is sympathetic, and she&#8217;s the <i>real</i> criminal here, because &#8220;things&#8221; like her <i>deserve</i> to die, and just existing counts as an assault that cries out for a &#8220;self-defense&#8221; retaliation.  Whammo.  The case is a different kind of open-and-shut, all of a sudden.</p>
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		<title>By: Renee</title>
		<link>http://thecurvature.com/2009/04/20/trans-panic-defense-underway-in-trial-for-angie-zapatas-murder/#comment-11902</link>
		<dc:creator>Renee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Apr 2009 13:20:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thecurvature.com/?p=4900#comment-11902</guid>
		<description>Thanks Cara I was confused because of what I have been reading in the media coverage on this case.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Cara I was confused because of what I have been reading in the media coverage on this case.</p>
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		<title>By: Cara</title>
		<link>http://thecurvature.com/2009/04/20/trans-panic-defense-underway-in-trial-for-angie-zapatas-murder/#comment-11900</link>
		<dc:creator>Cara</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Apr 2009 12:33:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thecurvature.com/?p=4900#comment-11900</guid>
		<description>Argh, my apologies, Brandy . . . for some reason I paid more attention to the tags (which are only able to be seen by search engines) than the categories (which are for site navigation) on this post.  (But opposite at Feministe -- maybe having to tag/categorieze it at two places confused my brain?)  I had &quot;misogyny&quot; and &quot;violence against women&quot; in my tags but not in my categories (and &quot;misogyny&quot; over in my categories at Feministe, though there is no generic &quot;violence against women&quot; category).  They&#039;re usually the last thing I do and I never proofread them . . . clearly I need to start.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Argh, my apologies, Brandy . . . for some reason I paid more attention to the tags (which are only able to be seen by search engines) than the categories (which are for site navigation) on this post.  (But opposite at Feministe &#8212; maybe having to tag/categorieze it at two places confused my brain?)  I had &#8220;misogyny&#8221; and &#8220;violence against women&#8221; in my tags but not in my categories (and &#8220;misogyny&#8221; over in my categories at Feministe, though there is no generic &#8220;violence against women&#8221; category).  They&#8217;re usually the last thing I do and I never proofread them . . . clearly I need to start.</p>
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		<title>By: Ryan</title>
		<link>http://thecurvature.com/2009/04/20/trans-panic-defense-underway-in-trial-for-angie-zapatas-murder/#comment-11899</link>
		<dc:creator>Ryan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Apr 2009 07:25:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thecurvature.com/?p=4900#comment-11899</guid>
		<description>TBH I don&#039;t even understand the defense&#039;s strategy.  Does it really matter what the defendent did or did not know?  He was not insane, yet he choose to lethally assault another person.  How can that be considered anything but murder?  It just seems so painfully obvious.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>TBH I don&#8217;t even understand the defense&#8217;s strategy.  Does it really matter what the defendent did or did not know?  He was not insane, yet he choose to lethally assault another person.  How can that be considered anything but murder?  It just seems so painfully obvious.</p>
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		<title>By: Brandy</title>
		<link>http://thecurvature.com/2009/04/20/trans-panic-defense-underway-in-trial-for-angie-zapatas-murder/#comment-11897</link>
		<dc:creator>Brandy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Apr 2009 04:57:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thecurvature.com/?p=4900#comment-11897</guid>
		<description>This defense is bunk. It&#039;s just more of the same victim blaming crap that you seen thrown around so abundantly when crimes against women are discussed or brought into court. It&#039;s gender violence apologism for his horrible acts.

Angie was killed because she was a woman. The problem Andrade had was that he didn&#039;t understand that for a person to be a woman, they didn&#039;t have to fit into his narrow and cisgendered socially imposed definition. 

Also, though the violence against Angie is not necessarily the focus of this post (the defense of her attacker is), shouldn&#039;t it still get the tag of &quot;violence against women and girls&quot; since it is associated?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This defense is bunk. It&#8217;s just more of the same victim blaming crap that you seen thrown around so abundantly when crimes against women are discussed or brought into court. It&#8217;s gender violence apologism for his horrible acts.</p>
<p>Angie was killed because she was a woman. The problem Andrade had was that he didn&#8217;t understand that for a person to be a woman, they didn&#8217;t have to fit into his narrow and cisgendered socially imposed definition. </p>
<p>Also, though the violence against Angie is not necessarily the focus of this post (the defense of her attacker is), shouldn&#8217;t it still get the tag of &#8220;violence against women and girls&#8221; since it is associated?</p>
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